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Author Topic: What has happened to us?  (Read 6747 times)
Bluefire
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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2009, 12:51PM »

Some of our members have posted their issues with the actual presentation of the CW show; lighting, staging, gowns, song selection, solos or group numbers that were omitted (or included), etc.  As long as they are respectful, we believe CW has a right to hear these opinions.  

But we draw the line at posts that are openly critical of the performers themselves.  They - the soloists, choir members and musicians - do read our posts, and they are human.  On more than one occasion I've learned that a performer's feelings were hurt by something that was said here.  We walk a fine line.  The producers can add a new solo if they want; it's far more difficult for the soloist to change her voice or her personality.  They are individuals with different talents and styles, and none of them are ever going to please every fan every night.  It's a matter of taste.

The girls give the audience everything they have each night.  No matter your preference of styles or music, each person can at the very least admire and respect that.  The fact that each girl brings something distinctly different to the table is a big part of what makes Celtic Woman such the success it has been.  It makes the show as a whole fuller and richer.  If you do not care for a portion of the show, fine... that's your prerogative.  However, to publicly criticize these performers (as the forums can be generally read by anyone) will not change the things that concern you... it only hurts feelings.  Perhaps to word that better... I don't think anyone will fault for saying "I didn't care for this, and here's why" as it allows discussion and seeing another point of view.  However, if you instead say "I hate this, what were they thinking doing this?", then you're just putting out negativity in a non-constructive way.  Hopefully I'm being clear.
  
Originally, we had only the Helix concert and the first five soloists.  We loved the show and worshipped the girls.  Then along came ANJ and, for the first time, we had that dreaded word - change.  The set list changed.  Hayley was in, then she was out.  Méav was in, then she was out.  And there was much screaming and weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Now we've seen new songs, new gowns, new staging and *shudder* new performers.  Celtic Woman is a victim of their own success.  In order to pay their bills, they've had to add new songs and remove some of our old favorites.  They've had to replace some people who have chosen to go in a new direction.  As a result, they've given us a basis for comparison that we didn't have before.  And not all comparisons are going to be favorable.  That's life.

There was a similar trend among the Cirque du Soleil fandom as more shows came out.  The earlier shows were considered groundbreaking and moving. As more shows were made and different directions, a number of people bemoaned these experiments while others cheered the attempts at something new.  There have been numerous comparisons between what was and what is.  With any show or concert, it's a very fine line to walk between what has worked before or trying something new... and as Rich pointed out, no matter what is done, it will not please everyone.  

The view I personally take on this is you really can't make direct comparisons between the old and the new.  Each special was directed by someone different.  Each subsequent show allowed the group to review itself and decide what they'd like to try next time... be it song choice, lighting, ensemble, camera angle, etc.  The same is true of each of the artists themselves.  To repeat again, each one is an individual, in singing style and personality.  There was no replacing in Celtic Woman... it was bringing in new and wonderful talent as others chose a different path... creating a new dynamic rather than filling something missing.  It is change, yes... but change is one of the few constants in life.


So here's your ground rule.  If you feel the need to post some constructive criticism about the CW production, we will probably allow it (as long as it's truly respectful and relevant; when in doubt, send one of us a PM).  But if you go after one of the girls - Alex, Chloë, Deirdre, Hayley, Lisa, Lynn, Máiréad, Méav and Órlagh - you are treading on very thin ice.

A good rule for any to follow.  We can all have our opinions, and have differing ones at that... but should always be considerate in how we express them.  
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 10:20AM by Bluefire » Logged

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Emily!
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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2009, 01:03PM »

LOL  I wish you could be in my Intro American classes when we get to the civil liberties section.

Uh oh, LOL.
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The Quiet Man
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2009, 01:40PM »

I agree with 98% of what has been posted here, although I for one DON’T miss the earlier days when CW could do no wrong.  I believe that this site, and others like it, do not exist to be mindless rah-rah for the artists and I am glad that the leadership seems to agree with that.  I came from a site for another artist, who shall remain nameless, where, as more people asked questions and raised legitimate concerns, the leadership clamped down tighter and tighter on any post that was seen as critical or negative.  Eventually that forum became a ghost town, occupied only by the leadership and a few hangers-on.

CW and its members are thankfully discreet, so we don’t have to worry about behind-the-scenes drama or personal behavior issues.  However, discussion of choice of music, arrangements, performance details, and so on, as long as it’s done in a non-cruel manner, I think is fair game and in fact healthy.  We’re consumers.  CW is selling us a product.  We are well within our rights to tell the manufacturer what we want in our products and what kind of products we want to see down the road.  If enough people tell them they want this product or that product, they should listen.  CW and its members are mortal, they are capable of making mistakes, and I believe it is all right to put up the caution flag if you honestly believe you need to do it.  We do no one anyone any favors if we say something is great if that’s not our honest belief. 

Tearing into the individual women is a fruitless exercise.  They are who they are and their voices are what they are.  In the end Dave Kavanaugh, Scott Porter, David Downes and the other powers that be get to decide who they hire and fire.  I’m an employment attorney and personnel decisions are one of the last business decisions that are not required to be transparent, and rightly so.  It’s a fact of any musical group that people come and go, and a fact of any show, which is what CW really is, that soloists get switched in and out.  This may be for any reason, no reason, or a personal reason that they CAN’T reveal, because it would polarize the fans or embarrass someone unnecessarily.  That’s why we really shouldn’t dig into the reasons behind those changes, although instability might be a fair question.  We’re allowed to have our faves, and allowed to believe this or that particular grouping was best, but we need to be careful how we phrase that belief so as not to deny anyone fair consideration.

The leadership here has been by and large fair since this forum started to expand, and I think two of the wisest decisions they made were to disallow “back seat moderating” so as to discourage members going after each other, and to not utilize “stealth moderating” where someone’s status as a mod is hidden and messages sometimes get sent using a name like “TeamCWF” so you don’t know who it is who’s bringing the hammer down.  These are two practices that are certain to lead to a toxic culture.

Rich is largely right in his statement about free speech, but just to build on that a little, speaking as a lawyer, here’s where the misunderstanding usually comes in: the First Amendment provides that CONGRESS shall make no laws abridging the freedom of speech, etc.  That means government can’t interfere with free speech, although it can set rules for time, place, manner, etc.  Private organizations, on the other hand, which includes malls, bookstores, AND websites, can set whatever rules they want.  That’s why malls can prohibit demonstrations whereas they can’t be prohibited on Main Street (though they can be regulated), and websites like freerepublic and democraticunderground can keep out those of the opposite political persuasion, and other sites can say political discussions aren’t allowed.  If you want access, you have to agree to follow the rules, and that’s usually spelled out before you are allowed to be a member.  If you break the agreement, then you can be removed.  That’s why you should read it before you agree to it.                         
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thedoctor
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2009, 02:12PM »

"However, discussion of choice of music, arrangements, performance details, and so on, as long as it’s done in a non-cruel manner, I think is fair game and in fact healthy."

I have to agree.

"although I for one DON’T miss the earlier days when CW could do no wrong.  I believe that this site, and others like it, do not exist to be mindless rah-rah for the artists and I am glad that the leadership seems to agree with that. "

I especially agree with this phrase and how it was put. I think there is a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. This will no doubt be slightly controversial but if we are not allowed to share our negative or not so positive opinions or experiences (as long as they are done tastefully and not target any one person or be very specific about something as to reveal identities) then we take away from the aspect that the girls are still human. To deny that they can do no wrong is treading on some dangerous thinking and behavior. I think that being reminded that the whole "Celtic Woman" thing is still a human creation and can make mistakes gives people a more realistic idea and balance in their love for the group so as not to be blind devotion. The moderators have done a great job in moderating behavior in the forum and the people in the forum have behaved themselves for the most part. Hard-line wording such as "Mild ...and I emphasize that word...critisism of lighting or sound can be tolerated " can make some people feel uneasy and not make them express some disappointment or something that happened to them. Maybe someone in the forum can provide a reason or an explanation for what happened to that person or just debate the issues over what production they liked better provided it hosts with a modicum of decorum.

I like the forum and they way that the moderators handle it. They do a good job of it. It is great that we are all fans of Celtic Woman but we have to remain balanced in our love for the group and remember that they are human. People can be hurt emotionally and extreme cases physically from a loss of reality in their love for a group, party, etc. It is healthy to show both sides of things.
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L.A. Girl
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2009, 04:15PM »

I liked SDS and At the Ceili so much that I originally was determined not to like SFTH. WRONG!!!  I've grown to enjoy it so much that I keep on watching the songs on Youtube over and over again. I bought my ticket for the L.A. concert the first day pledges were accepted, and  realize that it  is better to have an open mind and not pre-judge anything. We still have The Helix Concert, ANJ, and The Christmas Concert on DVD, and they will always be considered treasures.

Dianne

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Iluvcelticwoman
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2009, 05:55PM »

i couldnt agree more with you guys!!!
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Natalia
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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2009, 06:08PM »

I do agree with alot that has been said!
I do think we should respect the choices of CW Ltd, but also, they should read what we have to say about songs not being on the CD/DVD because CW wouldn't be what they are without us. Sure, it's the vocalists/musicans who touch us with their amazing talent. But we're the ones who bought the CD's,DVDs,tickets to the shows, etc. I do think the Ltd should consider the things we like/dislike, because I'm sure they want their success to continue.

However, I don't think our disagreements have pulled us away from CW. Sure, alot of people would like Carolina Rua and other songs to be on the CD or DVD, but that hasn't seemed to be stopping us from logging on to the forum nearly everyday and listening to their music regularly.
We can't get everything we want, and just think about it, it could be much worse. They could be cutting 5 songs rather than 3.
We should be happy with what we get.
I'm personally not going to cut to conclusions until a copy of the CD/DVD is in my hands.

I personally love SFTH. I think it was a wonderful show and I look forward to buying my copies in January. Despite of a few missing songs. Just because they may not be on the CD/DVD, dosen't mean they won't be on the tour.

Freedom of speech is an important thing, and we can say whatever we want outside the forum.
But on here, we should keep most negative comments(espeically about the girls), to ourselves.
I for one, apologize for any comment I've made that was negative to the girls or the Ltd.

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Emily!
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 06:37PM »

The way I feel about this whole topic is this: Constructive criticism is good and differing viewpoints are good, but if you're getting to the point where you're attacking and belittling the performers, you need to take a step back.

Personally, I've seen a lot of things get out of hand with the CW forum community. I've seen forum people attacking and threatening other forum people, attacking CW Ltd., and spreading lies and rumors about members and current/former CW performers.

There's only one thing I'm going to say about this (at the risk of getting harrassed again): If you're getting to the point where doing those things is important to you and makes you feel good about yourself for whatever sick reason, you need to take a step back, look in the mirror and examine your life. If an internet forum and/or a music group is the most important/valid/meaningful thing in your life, good Lord, please get some help. You are taking this stuff entirely too seriously. There is more to life than this.

In other words, let's just chill, be nice to each other, and ENJOY THE MUSIC!!! That's what we're here for to begin with. If you don't like somebody, then fine, but leave it at that. We're here because we love these girls and the music they make.

Disclaimer: This message brought to you by the Department of Emily. NO ONE TOLD ME TO WRITE THIS, no one encouraged me to do so, etc. These are my thoughts as an independent, intelligent woman.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 06:42PM by Emily! » Logged



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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2009, 06:42PM »

Very well said Emily!
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Cash
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2009, 08:04PM »

The way I feel about this whole topic is this: Constructive criticism is good and differing viewpoints are good, but if you're getting to the point where you're attacking and belittling the performers, you need to take a step back.
This is true. Others have also said something like this in their posts on this thread, and its very true that 'free' speech doesnt give you license to say or do whatever you want. You still have to be polite, use appropriate language, etc. You cant call people inappropriate names, or attack people, those sorts of things. You cant yell fire in a crowded theatre, that would lead to....Trouble  Cheesy

There's only one thing I'm going to say about this (at the risk of getting harrassed again): If you're getting to the point where doing those things is important to you and makes you feel good about yourself for whatever sick reason, you need to take a step back, look in the mirror and examine your life. If an internet forum and/or a music group is the most important/valid/meaningful thing in your life, good Lord, please get some help. You are taking this stuff entirely too seriously. There is more to life than this.
I agree, but I also have a slightly different angle to it. I think the same is true for the CW perspective to us. For example, if I say "Person X sings song Y better than Person Z" should that really upset them that a schmuck like me says that? (assuming I dont use crude langauge, or attack , etc) They are, after all, performers. I would think they have to have thick skins to be in the business. Again, thats not an excuse for anyone to abuse them, there is no excuse for rude behaviour. Yet I also think they know that they are talented, beautiful, blessed, and likely wealthy (assuming they have decent financial advisors and a properly diversified portfolio. )

Disclaimer: This message brought to you by the Department of Emily. NO ONE TOLD ME TO WRITE THIS, no one encouraged me to do so, etc. These are my thoughts as an independent, intelligent woman.
Dont underestimate Jedi mind control and the Masons   Cheesy

Rich is largely right in his statement about free speech, but just to build on that a little, speaking as a lawyer, here’s where the misunderstanding usually comes in: the First Amendment provides that CONGRESS shall make no laws abridging the freedom of speech, etc.  That means government can’t interfere with free speech, although it can set rules for time, place, manner, etc.  Private organizations, on the other hand, which includes malls, bookstores, AND websites, can set whatever rules they want.  That’s why malls can prohibit demonstrations whereas they can’t be prohibited on Main Street (though they can be regulated), and websites like freerepublic and democraticunderground can keep out those of the opposite political persuasion, and other sites can say political discussions aren’t allowed.  If you want access, you have to agree to follow the rules, and that’s usually spelled out before you are allowed to be a member.  If you break the agreement, then you can be removed.  That’s why you should read it before you agree to it.     
Hmmm yes, BUT....
Could we argue that Rich IS a government actor? Also a Corporate actor? Probabaly not, but I think we could make a better argument than one might think. .....Denny Crane  <I can hear the Boston Legal theme song playing lol >    Cheesy

I am not going to post it here though, getting a bit off topic, so maybe send in PM a little later.
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hesprit
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2009, 12:18AM »

I just want to clarify something about my original post because it seems like I may have given the wrong impression with it.

Let me start off by saying that I love Celtic Woman and I love this forum!  I'm in my mid 40s and, before CW, I had never been a member of a fan club for a musical group in my life.  I've been a fan, but never committed enough to sign up.  I had never paid to attend a concert, although I had gone to free performances, and I certainly supported performers by buying the music I like.  With Celtic Woman, something just touched me inside, in a way that had not happened before.  I've become a total fan.  I've gone to concerts, and since I'm on a very fixed income, some of these have cost close to a month's income with tickets, M&G, travel, hotel, etc.  I have no problem with doing this, I work things out to make it possible, because this group, and the pleasure I get from them, is worth it to me.

As far as my original post, I am not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions on the forums here, I think this is a great place to do that.  As Rich said, it's a good reflection for those of CW Ltd. to judge how they are doing their jobs in promoting the girls.  I also was not trying to criticize this forum, or the staff/mods in any way.  I know from experience how tough their job is, and I think they all do a great one! 

What I was trying to express was my own, personal, reaction to the way some things were being commented on.  I had been reading comments that talked about unfair treatment of different performers and about snubbing one city/country/culture to give unfair preference to another in scheduling.  I had seen posts that talked about writing protests and which basically demanded that CW Ltd., EMI, etc., explain themselves to us, that they had better have a good reason for not doing everything in a specific way.  Some of these posts were in the form of constructive criticism and were simply expressing a desire for a particular song or video.  That's fantastic, and it's good for the powers that be.  Some posts, though, at least to me, were getting a bit harsh.

I simply can't see anything constructive in accusing the people producing the SFTH DVD/CD of treating Alex or Lynn badly, just because a certain song wasn't included ... and yes, some of the posts I have read WERE accusations!  To put it simply, we do not know why these decisions were made, and we don't have to know.  I look at it like this, if I wanted to be the one making all those decisions, then I better be the one fronting the production money, or I'd better be "in the business" and so good at it that I was hired to do the job.  Since I am neither, I will wait for the finished product and I will enjoy it as it is provided.  I'll have my favorite parts, we all will, and I'm sure there will be things I miss in it, but I'll trust that there are reasons they weren't included, and hope for the next time.  It leaves me something to look forward to, after all.  And yes, I will continue to look forward to the next concert, the next CD, the next DVD ... I look forward to all of it continuing for a long time to come!
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hesprit
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2009, 12:48AM »

Accentuate the Positive and Elminate the negative..!!!

shankdee

That's actually what I was trying to point out.  Posts that accuse and demand were not bringing the positive aspects out, and it just felt ... wrong to be seeing an increase in them.



As for THIS CW FAN...I AIN'T GOING NO WHERE...I AM IN THIS FOREVER!!!  Grin


Mel aka Troublemaker#1

Mel, if this makes you a troublemaker, then sign me up cuz I'll be one too!


off topic p.s.  If you feel your constitutional rights have been violated in any way - you signed away those rights when you agreed to be bound by our membership rules.  This forum is privately owned and administered, and you do not have the right to say anything you want, either in posts or in the chat room.

Oh please tell me there aren't people who actually make the "BUT IT'S FREE SPEECH IN THE ~*~CONSTITUTION~*~!!!" argument on a privately owned internet message board. Please tell me there isn't that much ignorance in this world, lol.


*lol*  Sadly, Emily, I've seen that argument raised more times than I can count.  It's almost funny sometimes.
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shankdee
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2009, 02:21AM »

 Cheesy HI Peter, that well may be true since we are now 1,800 strong according to RICH. So those types of comments may
     have increased, however, I meant do NOT accentuate them...ignore them...dwell on the wonderful accolades, kudos,
     praises and outpourings of love for Celtic Woman. But as I said some of your points were valid. For instance,
     in one of my London theater seminars...our Leader...who was a Bigshot in BBC...asked everyone to think
     of something bad said about them and jot it down...( he was timing this)..we didn't know it...then he asked everyone
     to write down something good that had been said about them....TIME"S up ! he said. half of the table could not think
     of anything good, but every single person had written a "bad"comment. He said the bad sticks with you...he was trying
     show how the bad comments had a life of their own and people had assimilated them in their minds, whereas..if given
     more time most would have come up with the good also...He proved his point with the group studying London theater
     to take caution when being critical of others in the show business realm. So, you may be right about too many
     negative comments...but DON"T listen to them, discard them, and trust the moderators to elminate the really
     detrimental ones-we can alway PM a moderator also to let them know what we think. That's what I mean
     by accentuate the positive...eliminate the negative.....speaking about the comments AFTER they are in print, and I
     think you were calling on the FORUM to accentuate the positive in the FIRST place and stop the NEGATIVE
     comments BEFORE they arrive in print....right?? They are truly a wonderful, gifted group of exciting singers
     and muscians and I whole heartedly believe they are supported by their ever-growing world of fans...!!!
     I have seen a few of those comments you called attention to, and didn't even pay them any mind,,,just went right on
     seeing all the GOOD ones...Thanks for the reminder, tho' "the bad sticks like glue" ....and we should avoid it all costs....
     ***** ***** *****  C S

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SusanZ
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2009, 11:02AM »

Let's all watch the CW Christmas DVD or listen to the Christmas CD and enjoy the beauty and the talent that is Celtic Woman. That will put us in the spirit!  Wink Smiley

We have been given a gift that continues to amaze and delight us everytime we see CW perform live, listen to a new recording, or watch a new DVD. The girls give us 100% in every project they work on.

I have no problem with differences of opinion but when that difference crosses the line and starts attacking, it's time to say "whoa". I think we can all agree to disagree without getting out of line.

The moderating team, I feel, has been very diligent in looking out for management and performers of CW and the members of this forum. It's not easy when you look at all the remarks and topics that are posted every day.


Zee
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The Quiet Man
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 03:01PM »

Hmm, the question of who gets how much vocal time is a delicate one, but ultimately a musical one, which is ultimately in the hands of David Downes.  If you would like to see more of your fave vocalist or think she should sing this or that song it's probably all right, but accusations of musical unfairness or something like that are in a gray area at best.  As a singer myself, usually musical matters such as selection of music, soloists and performance details should be left up the music director's discretion, unless there's blatant favoritism or unprofessional behavior, which so far has not been the case.
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