Won't they ever learn?

[zankoku]

If you haven’t heard, the “RIRA” attacked the British Barracks in Northern Ireland and killed two British soldiers who were leaving the next day for Afghanistan. The murders attached the soldiers just as Oizza delivery people were delivering their wares. After shooting up the place, the Murders walked up to the soldiers and shot them on the ground.
Won’t these people ever learn that people want peace?
While I understand the original reason for the Original IRA back in the early part of the 20th Century (I won’t go into why I understand it then) The whole of Ireland is at peace even though still divided. The people of NI have made great strides to put aside the past and live in harmony, which will only make them stronger.
Even the articles in the Belfast times show that Sinn Fein has condemned the attack and the citizen of all faiths gathered to mourn the dead men.
It seems that some people just aren’t happy to see others live in harmony. It would be a shame to see the Troubles return.


Here is the link

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/huge-manhunt-for-rira-murderers-1665709.html

[Maggie]

I was asked about this on a British Forum this morning.

This was my reply, a bit long but I needed to give some background:
   
This is very tragic, especially for the families of the two soldiers shot dead by cowards as they lay on the ground.
They had gone to the gate to get pizzas from the 2 delivery men who were also shot and wounded.
I think there must have been a "mole" working in the pizza place.

I've been following the situation in Northern Ireland, for several reasons.
I am Irish, I love Ireland and want peace and stability in every province.
Ireland has a tragic past which is now history. The IRA which existed in 1916 to 1922 is no more. They put Ireland on the road to Independence, at great cost to themselves.
Some members of my family were involved during those years.

In more recent times in Northern Ireland, the Provisionals called themselves the IRA hoping to stir emotions and open old wounds, so they could raise lots of money, especially from some misguided people of Irish descent in the USA, who didn't know the difference.
After 9/11/01, their funds dried up, when the people of New York and Boston who were of Irish descent, began to question the motives of the P.I.R.A. and such fund-raising groups as Northern Aid. They finally saw them as terrorists, not "freedom fighters".

The people of Northern Ireland were sick and tired of the terrorists on both sides of the conflict. They wanted peace. They also wanted investment to rebuild business and repair the economy. The USA and EU promised them investment, if they could live in peace.
So eventually the Good Friday Peace Accord was signed on 10th April 1998, and the process started.
Gerry Adams seemed to change from a sleazy spokesman for terrorists into a dove of peace. :roll:
However not everyone in the PIRA was willing to lay down their arms, or shake hands with Ian Paisley. Splinter Groups were formed, still using the emotional initials.
The main break-away groups were the "Real IRA" and the "Continuity IRA".
On 15th August the "Real IRA" committed the biggest atrocity of the troubles, when they planted a car bomb in the middle of Omagh, killing 29 innocent people.
They called three warnings, which deliberately made the police direct people towards the bomb instead of away.
The dreadful carnage appalled the people of Northern Ireland, and the world.
The Peace accord continued, and culminated in Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness, who were previously sworn enemies, being appointed First Minister and Deputy First Minister.
Another good result was the reform of the Police Force.
Previously the Royal Ulster Constabulary was entirely Protestant.
The population of Northern Ireland is about half Protestant and half Catholic.
The name was changed to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and recruited Catholics to reflect the public they served.
I was reading a quote from the chief of Police last week, which said they were aware of groups who wanted to target Catholic recruits in the Police and Army. This was obviously to dissuade Catholics from joining.
He said they were watching about 80 individuals.
Whoever shot these two soldiers could not have known their religion, just the fact they were British soldiers.

Don't lose heart......although this is very tragic, the Peace Agreement will hold.
They will catch the murderers and should give maximum sentences.
What needs to stop is the kid-glove treatment when such despicable creatures are caught.
Personally, I would like to see them wiped out in an "armed confrontation", if you get my drift.....save the taxpayers a lot of money.
The two suspects in the Omagh Bombing - one was cleared of all charges, the other went on the run and died of cancer.

I believe eventually we all have to answer for how we lived our lives, and how we treated others.
I hope there is a very special place to which these people are condemned, who deliberately slaughter innocent people.

[zankoku]

Some members of my family were involved during those years.

As were mine. Which is why I find the murders using the IRA name a disservice to those men and women who fought to gain independence and even during the Civil War that followed.

I did notice that the Call went out from both the Protestants and the Catholics for the people not to overact and cause retaliation but to unite against the murders. they did just that when the people left their churches on Sunday morning and gathered together in mourning as a united people, not Catholics and Protestants but as Irishmen and women.

Maybe they should find the murders and send them to Afghanistan in teh company of the regiment that these two soldiers belonged to. They could be point men through the mine fields.

Jim

[Bookworm]

I am too young to remember much of this (I was 6 in 1998) so I ordered some books about it from the library, because now I want to know all about it.

[zankoku]

maybe Maggie can give you some book titles to read, but remember you have to go way back, before the Republic came into existence, back in the days at the tuen of the century (20th) to get a total picture of the island.

But I commend you for searching out the true history..

Jim

[Maggie]

I am too young to remember much of this (I was 6 in 1998) so I ordered some books about it from the library, because now I want to know all about it.

Good job! There are many books and DVDs about Irish History, some are better than others.

I've seen some that are biased, others that don't tell the whole story, so you get a distorted view.
I've read books about Ireland written by people who haven't a clue. They spend a couple of vacations there, and think they are experts. 

Don't rely on Wikipedia.....it can be written by anybody, whether they know their facts or not.
I think what you need to begin with is a concise, factual overview, and you can go into more detail later. Maybe a DVD would be best to start with.

It will help if you get to know the geography of Ireland. Have a map handy, or online, so you can see where historic events took place.

A good guide to the basic facts about Ireland is the CIA Factbook - this is about the Republic only, it does not include Northern Ireland:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html

The best books and DVDs about Irish History are those produced in Ireland.

There are some good links here:
http://www.discoverireland.com/us/about-ireland/history/?WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=us_ga_0402_om_history

http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/History_of_Ireland

I'll find some more titles. Good luck with your studies.

[The Quiet Man]

These idiot hard-liners are a day late and a dollar short, no one is going to force a reunification of the island now, that's a pipe dream.  I wouldn't mind seeing the PSNI take care of these guys before they got to trial.

Unfortunately, this is nothing new, even years after the official peace there are always the last dregs of the poison cup, like the British encountered in South Africa and like we Americans ran into in Iraq.  The worst part of it, in some ways, is that people like this have already lost, so they have nothing to lose by continuing the fight.  Frequently for them the violence isn't a means to an end, but an end in itself. 

As for the underlying story, eh, I had relatives on both sides.  Some of what they produce in Ireland is relatively unbiased, but some is pretty partisan too, I've run into Irishmen who call the RUC "British terrorists" and other hateful rhetoric.  Stay away from movies like 1996's "Michael Collins," though, it's inaccurate and pitched at Irish-American audiences who think of themselves as more Irish than the actual Irish (not that all do, that's just who it's pitched at).         

[zankoku]

I haven't found it yet, but my cousin recommended Michael Collins: A Biography (by Tim Pat Coogan (Author)

His father and my Grandfatehr were borther (There were a lot of them). they are from County Cork and knew the Original IRA volunteers. Not the rabble these murders are.

Yes teh movie Michael Collins may be a little inaccurate but every movie that comes out is based on fact and it behooves the watcher to investigate the truth on their own. Real life has a tendency to be boring.

Same as Wind that Shakes the Barely. Fiction story based on reality.

Dear Maggie has helped me locate some history around Cork which is very interesting when watched along with the Michael Collins and Wind that shakes the barely. I would not dismiss Michael Collins movie as it does have value.

IMHO

Jim

[Maggie]

A PSNI Police Officer was shot dead on Monday 9th March in Craigavon, Armagh, while responding to a call for assistance.
He had worked in the area for 20 years and was well respected by local people.
He was married with children.
He is the first Police Officer to be murdered since 1997.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0310/craigavon.html

Who are the dissidents?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7934742.stm

Police Constable Stephen Carroll:
Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam

[zankoku]

I also read that one of the soldiers who was murdered, protected one of the delivery boys and sacrificed himself. A real hero.

I hope they catch these murders soon.

Jim

[Maggie]

The Movie "Michael Collins" was based on fact, but not entirely true.

General Michael Collins was called "The Big Fella", big in stature, vision, and reputation, and was a bold, fearless soldier.
When he was a child, his family was evicted from their tiny cottage, in which Michael was born, and the cottage was burned. He learned about the oppression of his people the hard way.
He believed in "know thine enemy",went to London, studied at King's College (my son attended the same University) and passed the Civil Service exam. He worked for the Royal Mail Service and learned about the inner workings thereof.
Back in Ireland, he became leader of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, which later became the IRA.
While British troops were hunting him in Dublin, it is known that he rode past them several times on a bicycle.
His was a valid cause......an end to the oppression and bullying of the Irish people, Independence for the whole of Ireland. He helped to achieve it for 26 of the 32 Counties.

His story needed no enhancement, but Hollywood had other ideas.

So yes, enjoy the movie but realize it is not to be taken entirely as fact.

A far better film was the documentary "Hang Up your Brightest Colours" which unfortunately was banned by the British Government, and taken out of circulation.
I have a rare copy, transferred from Video onto DVD.....it is the true story of Michael Collins, with original footage of the Easter Rising and events of the time.
In fact, one of my bookcases looks like an Irish History library, with some great books, videos and DVDs, most from Ireland. 

Back to the subject of this thread.......
no, such people as these terrorists will never learn as long as they get away with murder.
They need a very harsh lesson in reality, from a united and determined people.
Pray that they are defeated, and finally see the error of their ways.

It is possible for members of Terrorist organizations to turn around......
Martin McGuinness is now Deputy First Minister (equivalent to Vice President).
Gerry Adams was spewing hatred of the British Army and Police for many years......
now he preaches peace.

[Maggie]

By the way......I was marching in the 30th Annual Winter Park Saint Patrick's Parade on Sunday.
I was of course dressed in green  and carrying an Irish flag.
It was a gorgeous day, the large crowd was happy and upbeat, with many small children having fun.
The Parade was the best ever.

Then I spotted on the sidewalk a woman holding up a poster "Brits out of Ireland", she was spewing forth hatred and abuse, with little children around.
I lowered my flag, went over to her and told her this was not the time or place to display her hatred. I asked when she was last in Ireland.....she has never been.
I told her such signs do more harm than good to the people of Ireland, and calmly challenged her to go to Northern Ireland and hold up the same sign. I took up my flag and marched off, to a round of applause.

What we don't need is Americans once again taking up the cause of these Terrorist groups.
Do not be fooled by "Northern Aid", which is the fund-raising arm, founded on the lie that they are providing funds for families of political prisoners. They try to set up tables at Irish Festivals all over the USA.....please let good sense be your guide.

[zankoku]

maggie, Even Ian Paisley seemed to turn around. He spewed as much hatred against Catholics as did his enemies. For a Churchman that was appaling.

If theseguys can lay down arms and wrap themselves in peace, anyone can.

I applaud you for taking to task that woman. Obviously she was a few years late on the news. Peace was in all the Irish newspapers. Perhapd she should read the Belfast Times and the Irish Independent. What was her reaction?

I still like the old IRA songs of the Clancys as they are good songs, but I probably would not sing some of them in public. (Besides, my singing is bad).

Jim

[searcher119]

This thread has turned into a great discussion! So did all this start out as a religious freedom issue a century ago?

[Antiup]

Interesting topic everyone. I am a History Major and honestly do not know much about Ireland and its history. I look forward to reading about it.

Maggie- As Zankoku said I applaud your efforts. So many times people react to something they have no idea about. I did something like thne when I saw and American Flag hung upside down at a parade. Just to say, mine got a littl bit ugly but I walked away with that flag. People hate and lack of knowledge or truth is a bad thing.

As you said Maggie, I would love for her to try to wave that sign in Ireland.